a. Using at least one specific example, how was “sin” treated within this film? Was it glamorized/glorified, or did it receive more of a biblical treatment (redemption, justice, mercy, grace, forgiveness, reconciliation, resolution, etc. etc.) Try to use different examples than the ones mentioned in previous posts. Feel free to disagree with other peoples’ ideas.
b. God says we should put nothing “worthless” in front of our eyes. What is good, excellent, redemptive about this film? What was worthwhile? Was anything worthless about it? Can you wholeheartedly recommend this film? To anyone? A pastor? A friend? A sibling? Teacher? Why? Why not? Who would this film NOT be appropriate for and why? Biblically explain and draw your conclusions.
a.
ReplyDeletemurder was the biggest sin in the movie. The murdering was definitely not glorified or glamorized. They was the put it was vile and cruel. When the main character and his friends died, I found that all their wives forgave the tribal people for slaughtering their beloved ones. Another scene I found that sin was treated biblically was the end. The main character found that his sam, I think was his name, killed his father. The main character was furious. Sam gave the main character a choice of killing. Ready to be killed, The main charters son put down the spear and gave him mercy
I agree with you, Alena, but I think the guys' names were Myodani(????)and Steve. There WAS too much graphic murdering, and definitely not glorified. The missionaries' families never sought revenge for what the Waodani did to them, and they treated it quite biblically. They showed love to the people who otherwise would have probably killed them. Instead, they showed mercy.
DeleteKimo is the one who wants Steve to spear him (kills Steve's father). Good point about the mercy the missionaries' families replied to the Waodani. That was quite an experience. Just imagine if you were put into Steve's shoes. That would be incredibly difficult to go through. Especially dealing with the tribe that killed his father and what that would have been like.
DeleteYes..I agree with Alena, but the murder in the movie WAS needed to portray the film accurately. I 100% agree with Patrick that it was very violent and a litlle gory, but it is a movie about guys getting killed by Indians, what are you going to do? I wish they didnt show all that blood though.
DeleteOk, so I understand what you girls are saying about the movie being very graphic and way to violent. In my opinion it wasn't that bad at all considering some of the movies I've seen. But that's beside the case. If there wasn't all the killing and spearing there was in the movie, than how would you get across the main point, or even more broad, the title of the movie. The End of the Spear? I mean that's what 99% of the people in the movie died from, a spear. The violence, in my opinion, really drove home the main point of what the movie was trying to get at. I think the director of the movie was trying to make the Wodians (whatever the tribe of Indians was called) really bad to begin with, then show the great transformation to good. If you leave out the killing then its not as big of a transformation in the movie and there isn't as much of a middle point between the two stages. If that doesn't make sense please comment!
DeleteBacking up from just this film - can we think through if depicting violence is okay in general? At what point is violence "bad" for us to watch? Think more broadly than just this film. Can you back up your ideas with Scripture so that it's more than just your opinions?
DeleteYes Mr Talley I think I can. First of all we see violence all throughout the bible! As you said in class, if the Bible were a movie it would be rated X! For example, Cain and Able, David and Goliath, tons of battles, sacrafices and many other bloody gory things. But a verse that really stick out to me on this topic is Romans 12:2, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
DeleteIt was quite violent, but I agree with everyone here saying that the story could not be told without it. The missionaries had to be murdered, and the movie would not be titled "End of the Spear" without the spear killings. They did go overboard, but it could be a lot worse.
DeleteI agree with everything above. It's ok to have murder in a film as long as it's not glorified. The murder in this film was treated with a disdainful attitude. I also think the murder in this case was not worthless, as it was meant to show how the World has fallen and people now (used to-maybe) commit dreadful sins.
DeleteOn occasion there could be a movie/anything in which the sin could be directed at one particular person who is nonfictional. Say the leader of a country or someone high in a place of this world. This could be a sin because it might be made by the "hate this guy" foundation (made up). To get people to relise just how bad someone really is even when they did not ask for someone to make this film/anything (obviously).
DeleteDon't be conformed to the pattern of this world...but be transformed by the renewing of your minds.
DeleteHmmm...it'd be great to identify many of the different "patterns" this world offers us (not just related to the film) - and then to also express (biblically and/or from experience) how minds get renewed? Have you ever had your mind truly renewed?
I think the tribal people could have made a treaty instead of killing peeps
ReplyDeleteI agree with both of you but I think that there was not only justice being served, but also forgiveness and a resoulution at the end of the movie. Forgivess was given to the forieners later after a man from the tripe lied and said the forieners tried to attack. The resolution was when the forieners and the tribe came together and lived with eachother and acted like a family.
DeleteI understand what you guys are saying, and I agree with you. I also feel like since the Indians didn't know God and felt "empty," they started their own actions and habits, which eventually formed into murder. When the American families came, all the Indian tribe knew of how to treat foreigners was with hate. When the Indian tribes ways turned on them and they were left not knowing what was right, the missionaries were still there and willing to share the gospel to them. God shows us this same exact response when we try to do our own thing and stray away from Him. I know that he will always be there when we feel empty, and that His love for us is unconditional.
DeleteErica, I'm don't know if I agree with you when you said that forgiveness was given to the foreigners when the man from the tribe lied. I believe the foreigners forgave the tribe for killing their loved ones when they chose to stay with the tribe. Also Steve could have killed the man who killed his father,but instead, he forgave him
DeleteI agree with Julie on that one... The foreigners forgave the tribe because they decided to stay with them. I think it would've been very hard to live with someone you were enemies with.
DeleteJosh, do you really think they were "enimies"? Did the foreigners consider the Waodani to be their enemies? Are Christians allowed to do this? If so where in the Bible do you find your answer? If not?
DeleteI forgot to add, how are Christians supposed to treat their "enemies"?
DeleteGreat point Patrick. You really caught me off guard on that one. I definitely think I should re-word that comment.
DeleteMatthew 5:38-39 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
I think what Matthew is saying is exactly what the foreigners are doing. They are getting beat up and disrespected by the Indians and still not reacting with anything but love and constantly trying to pursue the Gospel in each one of there lives.
Mark 12:30-31 "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.There is no commandment greater than these.”
Patrick, the lack of the verse Mark 12:30-31 (^) is where my last comment fell short. I don't think that the Indians where the foreigners enemies, I think they were just scared of them and had heard scary stories to make them hesitant
In Matthew 5:38-39, is Jesus suggesting that we should just let evil people abuse us?
DeleteAlso, is it possible to follow the greatest commandment (from Mark 12:30-31) - and if it's not possible, why in the world would God give us something impossible to keep?
I think that along with the main sin in the movie (Murder), there were also some other sins that got involved in it. there was pre-married pregnancy, which is a huge problem in our time. one of the indians becomes pregnant and they kill the man who got her pregnant. They treat this as a HUGE sin in the movie, obviously they didn't need it to make the movie but it shows what the movie director thinks of teenage pregnancy. The movie could have gone on without it, but it did play a role in the movie.
ReplyDeleteI think that's a great point Matt! If I can also add that the director really was against abortion too. I thought this because of how the leader of the tribe treated the teenager that was pregnant. He lets her live so the baby could live. The girl, by her actions and attitude, is caring more about the baby than herself and she sees what she had done wrong.
DeleteInteresting that abortion came up in this thread. Do you think our society is any different/better off (or worse off) than a society like this that kills violently with the spear? Are we more inhumane and disgustingly violent than the Waodani? Can you back up your point with examples from life and/or Scripture?
DeleteOh Mr Talley I think our society is extremely worse! This is nothing compared to the things we express in movies video games and in real life. I think you make a great point and I agree with the way I think you might go with that comment.
DeleteI think that murder was a major sin with the movie. There was killing of innocent people like the missionaries, and murder for revenge. The sin of the tribe was strictly not allowed as said in the 6th command ment "you shall not murder". While there was a ton of murdering in this movie, it was not being projected as a fun or right thing to do. Towards the end of the movie, The rival tribe comes to the tribe the missionaries were at in their time of need. They didn't kill them, rather they helped raise them back to health. So if you asked me if there murder was praised in this movie I'd say no. If you disagree with me PLEASE feel free to comment why
ReplyDeletetesting123
ReplyDeleteHmmmm...your microphone works Vermillion.
Deleteok sorry was wondering if my mac on safari would work
ReplyDeleteI agree Dean. I also agree with Potterbaum. At one point that killing was not necessary but in another point a view it explained the entire movie.I don't think this would be an interesting movie if there wasn't killing or at least a big major sin.
I agree with pretty much everyone that the main sin was murder. As for redemptive, there were two scenes that really stood out to me. The first one is after the indian killed the main missionary (the boy's father). When the indian saw/found the picture of the little boy, I felt like the indian was having a spiritual struggle. Maybe he was upset that the man had a son or he possibly realized he had just killed a good man. The second scene was at the very end when the indian confessed he killed the boy's dad, after the kid has grown up. Not only did the grown-up boy overcome his anger at the indian, he forgave him and they remained friends.
ReplyDeleteMaybe this means that we should forgive our friends after they have hurt us.
Realistically, how hard is it to forgive people after they hurt us? Explain when/why it's hard. What makes it easier? Has anyone successfully done this?
DeleteUnfortunantly, it's extremely hard to forgive someone completly. Actually, I'm not quite sure it's possible. I think there's always something inside that makes impossible to completely let go. That is the sin inside of us.
DeleteThe only human i think to ever really fully and truly forgive is Jesus. The Isrealites killed him, yet when he came back to life he had forgiven them completly. And of course God forgives us everyday for our sins.
I agree with you Alyssa. I think maybe its not possible to forgive someone COMPLETELY! For me personally forgiveness is one of the hardest things to do. I have forgiven people,but no matter how hard I try not to think about what they have done to me, there is always a part of me that looks at them differently. I don't think that the relationship can ever be the way it was before they hurt you. And that is a consequence of sin
DeleteDoes God forgive completely? What does "complete" forgiveness look like? Can we find Scripturally some things that God says about forgiving...things that could help us understand how it works and if we are capable of it?
DeleteI think forgiving someone completly is not using what they did against them in your own mind. Forgiving someone completlty is like how Jesus forgave us.
DeleteMathew 6:14-15 says "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, the Father will not forgive you." I think this verse kind of scares me because, what if I'm not forgiving someone completely? I think this is important because if God can forgive something as evil as us, then why can't we forgive others for thinkgs they ddid???
A. In this film there were alot of sins. Hatred, revenge, halving false gods. Murder was really huge in this film going along with hatred. It was treated differently between some people. The indians thought it was fine because they were protecting themselves;however, steve,his family, nd the others knew it was wrong and didnt think it was right to do. Murder in this film was definitely not glamorized at all. The way they killed one another was terrible. They showed no forgiveness or mercy when they were betrayed at the beginning.
ReplyDeleteB. In this film what is great is the change in the people hearts. How they showed forgiveness, mercy, grace. What was worthwhile was just seeing it nd digging in deep to reflect it in different ways. What was worthless was i guess the showing of the blood when people were killed nd the pain. but yet the movie wouldnt be complete without it. This film would probably be good for people who are not in the right mind. whos maybe thinking negative thoughts.
I agree with Natalie. They really showed mercy and grace. I think that Natalie is right about people that are having negative thoughts should watch this movie, maybe it could even begin to change them too.
DeleteJosh P I totally agree with you. The main point could not be told without the violence. The story wouldnt be complete nd it would take away from what the director is trying to get across. Without the violence the story would be a lil bit weird nd confusing and no one could see the transformation in the indians.
ReplyDeleteI also completely agree with Josh. All the violence was necessary to portray the real story of what happened. Even though this movie was violent, today this probably seems like nothing compared to some of the other bloody and gory movies that we see on a regular basis. Its kind of part of our culture to see this kind of stuff regularly wether through movies,videogames, or websites that we visit.
ReplyDeleteI don't think any of the sins were really glorified. The Waodani tribe was seen as a horrible group of people in the beginning who had a messed up tribe. I saw a lot of different main points. I think the main points were mercy and grace. I think the scene in the first part of the movie could be considered mercy because many of the foreigners had guns when the indians attacked but they chose not to use them because that would just make the Waodani tribe hate the foreigners more than they already did. Second thing I see is when the loved ones of those men who got murdered by the Waodani decided to live with the indians and help them. I think this is grace because they didn't just forgive the Waodani tribe they gave them something in return that changed their tribe forever. They gave them the good news/gospel so that they could one day go to heaven. I don't know if I could have done that. Someone killed my father and then I go help them?!?!?! I don't know if I could have even forgiven them! That's redemption.
ReplyDeleteAt my church youth group are theme is "Think right win the fight." Its all bout keeping are thoughts on godly things. In Phil. 4:8 it says "Finally brothers whatever is true,whatever is noble, whatever is right,whatever is pure,whatever is lovely.whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things."
ReplyDeleteMr.Talley challenged us to think outside of just the film, and to answer the question when is violence ok to watch.So many times we see violence in movies,videos,and TV. These types of entertainment don't help us keep our thoughts on the things mentioned in Phil.8. So if you can watch violence and still keep your thoughts on pure, and right things, then it is ok...
Practically speaking, how do we get our minds on these things?
DeleteA. I think that the biggest sin in this film would be murder. I do not think that it is glorified, or glamorized. I think that without that sin in the movie, the story would not be told right.
ReplyDeleteB. I think what is worthwhile, is the fact that the Waodoni people eventually come to us and seek our help, and are not just murderers. And cold-hearted people What I view as, "good, and excellent" about this film is how we lay our lives down to teach those about who Christ who don't have Christ in them.
Caitlin I completely agree with you! Mr.Talley did challenge us to think outside the box. I think that violence was good to the Waodini people because they didn't know any better than to kill them in order to stay safe. The sin of murdering them wasn't glorified, and just like how everyone else has said i agree that if you take out the violence the film would've been pointless because that's how they got to the resolution of it.
ReplyDeletein the movie we see the Indians kill the missionaries. the movie treats it as a horrible thing.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the son forgave the killer of his father was definitely worthwhile. i could definitely recommend this film to anyone.
Me too Weston. I really liked the movie and all the content of it. it showed the all the bad sins as being bad and not as something cool and fun to do as some films may . I really liked the movie and how it showed the sins as bad and not exactly glorifying them.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I think to tell the story there had to be murder, and unpleasant content. And it was definitely necessary to tell the story. Without the murder the film wouldn't have been able to show grace,mercy,and justice. I also agree that the film did not glorify the sin or act like it would be really fun to go out and do.
DeleteI don't think that a violent movie is bad. Well it can be bad, but this movie although it was violent and gory, it had a lot of good messages. One thing that stood out to me was when that guy ( i dont know his name) lied about the Americans trying to kill them. That one lie caused the indians to spear the missionaries. That shows that a lie big or small Can have a huge affect.
DeleteWhat lies cause damage in our community? In our school? In our own lives and hearts?
DeleteI think I could recommend this film because I saw the gospel in so many ways. It gives great pictures of justice, mercy, and grace. It also shows these amazing missionaries going to great dangers to preach the god news! I think it wouldn't be suited for young kids because of all the murder, and I don't think the topics would make since to them.
ReplyDeleteI would recommend recommend this movie because it shows that we can all forgive if we try
ReplyDeleteHmmmm...earlier in this thread, people suggested that they are not able to forgive no matter how hard they try? Which is it?
DeleteI think it is really hard to but we can all do it if we pray to God for help
DeleteMr. Scott's Bible Class is finished with the project.
ReplyDeleteJust like many others are saying i agree too on how forgiveness was a big thing in the movie. The waodini people showed an example of this of when the wives of the people who were killed communicated with the indian people and so did the indians so there was like a whole thing of forgiveness there.
ReplyDeleteI Agree with you Maddi, forgivness was a big thing in the movie. Also I don't think that if i was in the foreigners shoes i would be able to fogive the indian tribe after they speared the womans husbands. But then again you can forgive but its always hard to forget.
DeleteI see what you guys are saying, but you have to remember that maybe being in the Indians shoes was hard too. I mean, living a life with out a sister because she had been taken by strangers, only having your family to hang around with, and then having to live with the thought that you killed innocent people. That right there would be hard for me. I think that Steve not killing The leader was a huge deal and definitely the right thing to do.
DeleteRomans 8:28 says that "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." The missionaries were called to minister the word of God to the Indian people. Even though they died, God used them for good to eventualy save the Wadoni people.
ReplyDeleteMark 16:15 also says "Go into all the world and proclaim the Gospel to the whole creation." The missionaries blatenly went into hostile areas of the world to share the Gospel.
DeleteActs 6:4 says "But we will devote ourselves to Prayer and to ministry of the world."
Delete1 Timothy 4:12 says "Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the belivers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, and in purity." This really relates to our everyday struggles.
Delete1 Peter 3:15 says "But in your hearts honor Jesus Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentelness and respect." This also really relates to our ministering to people because sometimes we don't do it with gentelness and respect.
Delete