Sunday, October 21, 2012
#3 - Mercy/Justice/Grace
MERCY/JUSTICE/GRACE – how are these things seen in the film? Using examples from the film and/or from Scripture, can we describe the difference between seeking justice and seeking revenge? It might be interesting for some of you to find the stories where King David (before he was king) had 2 chances to kill King Saul. In fact, Saul was at the end of the spear on 2 occasions – what similarities and differences do we find between those 2 Bible stories and the story of the Waodani tribe? What are the ways we can practically show justice and grace better within our families/school/world and what could/should be our motivation in doing so?
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I see mercy in the film when Steve's dad and all the men with him do not fight against reality (the attackers). Justice is seen when Moabi (or Woabi I forgot) is killed because of what he did to the Waodani (the beginning). Grace is experienced when Kimo is helping the sick family and the warrior leader is given kindness instead of harsh behavior by Kimo.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Patrick and also I saw mercy in the movie when Steve was about to kill one of the indian guys in the end but then didn't which was mercy because the indian guy didn't get what he deserved through attacking the people that Steve was involved with.
ReplyDelete(And Kimo was the indian guy's nameo). -Bingo, get it. I think you have a great point Madi, about Kimo and Steve. That was an amasing scene. You could just feel the tention, anger, mercy, etc.
DeleteYa Madi I totally agree with what you are saying about Kimo! I think its a great point. But if i can add. I think that the reason Steve didn't kill him was because of what he had in Christ. If it weren't for Him than I think Steve would have killed him. This is so symbolic too! (Which I find really cool)In this I see Kimo as us as humans and Steve as God. When kimo repents from his sin and admits that he killed steves father steve gets very angry with kimo. (Gods son was killed and in this steves father was killed so that part of symbolism is switched but still) Steve had the opportunity to kill Kimo right then and there with the spear but he decided not to because he knew who he had to represent and what message he would be putting across if he chose to drive that spear into his chest. So just as God did he doesnt use his power against us, instead he shows grace on Kimo and forgives him.
DeleteWhat do we find hardest to forgive?
DeleteWouldn't it be really amazing if we could give ACTUAL grace to people? Not just mercy - but like really surprising, amazing, real grace (gifts) to people who didn't deserve them? Wouldn't that be a fun and freeing way to live? What keeps us from living out the gospel of grace toward people?
I agree with Josh that it's symbolic to our relationship with God. We continue to sin over and over. God not only shows us mercy for not killing us for our sins, but he also shows us grace because he gives us forgivness and friendship. Steve also gives the indian friendship when he didn't deserve it. The truth is we never really do deserve God's unending grace. We deserve to die just like the indian. Actually, just like everyone else in the world.
DeleteYes! Mr Talley I think that's such an awesome point! Like when we do something nice for someone out of the plane kindness of our hearts, we always expect something back for it. Or if we don't get a gift in return later on in life we could look back to that time were you did something nice for that person and say "Oh! Rememmeber that time I did "This" for you? We always like to throw it back at the person saying its your turn to do something nice for me now
DeleteOh and A Shikles thats a really good statement in my opinion! God does show us unconditional mercy even though he knows we will mess up over and over and over again
DeleteI agree with Josh. i Think Steve Definitely would have killed him if he did not have God on his side, he would have killed him right then and there!
DeleteThat was a good point maddie and i agree. most people want to just get even and we all should get what we deserve but there is also this one part of us that says let it go and forgive. this is exactly what Jesus did for us and we can relate easily.
DeleteI see revenge in this film when the indians kill anyone who does them wrong without second thoughts. It scares me to think that there were barbaric people living like this not that long ago, and that the missionaries could have been killed for simply trying to spread the Good News.
ReplyDeleteCan we define the difference between revenge and justice (using the dictionary and/or Scripture)?
DeleteI'm not sure about this, but revenge seems more "human-like and justice is more "godly and lawful"
Deletere·venge
[ri-venj] Show IPA verb, re·venged, re·veng·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, especially in a resentful or vindictive spirit: He revenged his murdered brother.
2.
to take vengeance for; inflict punishment for; avenge: He revenged his brother's murder.
verb (used without object)
3.
to take revenge.
jus·tice
[juhs-tis] Show IPA
noun
1.
the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2.
rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3.
the moral principle determining just conduct.
4.
conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5.
the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
Thank you //dictionary.reference.com/ !!!!!
DeleteWow! V. Winkler what an awesome comment. I totally agree with what your saying about revenge vs. justice. But I think they are a lot closer in meaning than that. One, they are both ways of giving punishment for something that is done. BUT! They aren't always definitions for giving punishments. The best way I can explain the relationship between Revenge and Justice is "Something you get in return for doing something." It could be a reward or a punishment. But always you have to have revenge and justice is in return for doing something.
DeleteLeviticus 19:15
“‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.
Leviticus 19:18
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
(Isn't it so awesome how these two verses are three verses apart??)
Good find Josh - it is cool how the verses are so close - perhaps because these subjects are so closely related.
DeleteWhen it says to "judge your neighbor fairly," what does this mean?
When it says to "love your neighbor as yourself," what does that really mean practically?
How do we show partiality and favoritism?
I totally agree with you Patrick, yet I have some different opinions. The people are definitely shown grace when they gain medical care from the others. However, with Justice i do think the leader Moabi( dont know his name, he was killed by the young boy) got what he deserved, yet we all deserve to die a long painful death. Everyone just because God sent his only son to die for our sins. So for the others who werent killed, they should have died for their sins too. With mercy i do agree with you.
ReplyDeleteYou guys are right i agree, if it wasnt for God that saved our sins, that took a sacrifce for us we would all be suffering. God gave us grace and we should pass that on to others when things go wrong, don't always be quick to give people justice because when you think about it we all deserve justice.
DeleteTo L.Thuro. I agree with you. I do see revenge in this film. With all the Indians wanting to get back at the boy,Steve,and his family because they thought they killed the girl(her name starts with a D). Although they were lied to and werent told the truth.
ReplyDeleteI see a few similalrities between the story of David and Saul and the movie. First, I see how David and the missionaries are alike. Even though they both had the chance to kill someone who wanted them dead, they showed mercy and didn't kill or attempt to kill them. Saul had hunted down David and attempted to kill him many times, and even when he had the perfect chance, he showed Saul mercy. Saul and the Waodani people all deserved to die, just like you and me. I see an amazing picture of mercy when the Indian's attack the first group of men that come, and even though the men had guns, they chose to not use them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Christina. The men could have easily shot at the tribe when they were attacking. But they gave them mercy and didnt shoot. I think it said later on in the movie that the men didn't want to kill the people who killed them because of the reactions it would have on the family.
DeleteOkay - so how do we have the opportunity to "shoot" each other so easily? Do we take the shot? When/why do we? Why do we not?
DeleteDo you see people at school who "have the guns" too but choose not to use them? In other words, have you seen mercy been given to you and/or others at Westminster - what about in some other area of your life? Help us picture mercy in our world today - sometimes it is hard for us to see/understand.
I agree with Mr. Talley, it is a little confusing, but I think that we have the opportunity to "shoot" basically all the time. It's horrible, we don't actually shoot at each other, but we are drawn to hurting them to make ourselves better. We could make fun of them, spread rumors, tell lies, or even something as simple as literally hurting them.
DeleteI also think that there ARE people who "have the guns" to hurt someone, but they simply choose not to do it. They know God's love for every one, and maybe they even know what it's like to be picked on, but either way they choose not to. It may not be very clear at first, you may not see people as "oh, they 'have the guns'" but it could be just something as simple as being good at sports, or even being smart. they show you up all the time, and you know it makes you sad or upset, and frankly....it DOES feel like they are shooting a gun at you, there is no way to come back.
I agree with Mr. Talley and Ottsen. we DO have the guns as Ottsen said, and he gave great examples of how we can "shoot". But I think that there are reason that people choose not to "shoot". I think that if it werent for God and his holy spirit working inside of us, we would shoot right away. So I think the reason for when we choose not to shoot is that God gives us the forgiveness and mercy to not shoot others.
DeleteI agree with Christina The missionaries could have easily shot the Indians.They knew that their souls were ready to go to heaven and the Indian's souls were not
DeleteOttsen - I like how you describe "have the guns." It is very interesting what ammunition people have...
DeleteI see mercy through out the whole movie...there is mercy shown when Steve spares Kimo's life, or when the explorers do not fight back at the attacking Indians, and even when they do not kill the baby that was born from one of the tribe members who was not married.It is looked at from a Christian view throughout most of the movie....I cant remember where, and I don't have my Bible, but somewhere it says to "Love others as Jesus Christ the Lord forgave you." God would not kill one of us..right..and he does not kill us because of his love for us. If we really are loving others as God loved them, then we wouldn't kill others made by God, just as God would. God shows grace to others, so why shouldn't we show others the grace of God through the way we act.
ReplyDeleteI agree with that!!! Steve did spare Kimo's life, I think that he stopped before he killed him because of the kindness of his heart, but also because of God's power within.
DeleteWhats the difference between revenge and Justice? That's the question I have had.
ReplyDeleteTo me it seems like revenge is done out of anger. But God tells us not to take revenge, he says vengeance is his (Romans 12:19). Justice on the other hand is more like consequences for your actions I think. So for example justice would be life in prison if you killed someone, and revenge would be killing that person out of anger...maybe?
I think difference between those two are:
DeleteJustice is within the law. If you break a rule you DESERVE to be punished.
As in revenge you want to payback someone for what they did to you.
I definately agree with Alena in that we do deserve justice when we break the law and Jesus willingly paid that price for us and i also agree in what revenge in this movie truly stands for because the Indians did want revenge on the other tribe but instead in a way they took out all that anger on the foreigners by killing them.
DeleteI think the thing about revenge is that it's based on your opinion. Whether someone did you wrong or not, do we really have the power to take things into our own hands and punish them? When people hurt us in any way, usually judgement clouds our vision and we try to decide that they deserve justice. Really God is the only one with the power to decide punishment.
DeleteOn that hand, don't we deserve justice for all the things we do?
Good point Alyssa!
DeleteYes, we do deserve Justice for all things we do...but because of the cross we don't get justice for are sin. Because justice for are sin would be hell,but God sent his son to die, so we can spend eternity with him, so he has given us grace.
At the part of the movie where the indian wants steve to kill him because he feels bad about killing his father. If steve had killed the Indian would that be revenge even though the Indian "wanted" steve to kill him
DeleteBethany, I think it would be considered revenge because the only reason Steve wanted to kill the indian was because he killed his father. He wouldn't have killed him for no reason.
DeleteYeah Caitlin revenge is done out of anger usually, and God does tell us not to retaliate (go for revenge) in matthew 5. It also talks about it Matthew 5 to love your enemies because if you are a follower of Christ you would act out in a situation how he would act out in love. Just as we see in the movie at the beginning when the men had just gotten to the place where the waodini people were they weren't planning on killing them even if they tried to kill them as we saw in the movie. even though it could've been "smart' to do so they still didn't they acted with mercy.
ReplyDeleteThe End of the Spear showed a lot of grace, whether it was when the missionaries helped the Indian tribe hear the Gospel, or the Indians letting the American wives and children stay on their land, even though they didn't trust them. At the very end of the movie, Steve had the opportunity to kill the man who killed his dad. Steve was close to stabbing the man when he remembered that his dad would of wanted to die if it meant another life would be saved. The tribe leader deserved to die a long time ago, yet many people showed grace toward him, resulting in him becoming a Christian. I think it's amazing the effect that grace can have on people sometimes.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Haguewood about grace. I think the movie had many great pictures of how grace should work. The tribe leader didn't deserve to live at all! He had caused pain to many people and most of all, he was a sinner like all of us. I think Steve must've understood grace very well for him to let the leader live even though he had killed his father.
DeleteI saw mercy, when the tribe kept attacking them and they just tried to back off. I saw grace, when the missionaries were living on the tribes' land, even though the tribe did not fully trust them, they had grace. I saw justice when that one guy (I don't remember his name)was killed after lying about the missionaries trying to kill or hurt them. I think he deserved that, considering they all ended up getting killed!
ReplyDeleteya i totally agree with you Hannah H there was a lot of grace going on throughout the movie. But why did the tribe give mercy on the rest of the family, when they killed their husbands?And why didn't they give the man from their own tribe mercy instead of justice. Does god ever do this to his people? Chose one over the other?
DeleteJulie that's a really good question, and I think the same thing. Does God chose to save certain people and not save other people? I don't think he does, because the Bible says he loves everyone equally, but if he loves everyone equally why doesn't he safe everyone?
DeleteIn the Bible it says man looks on the outside but God looks on the heart. God can see the evil in our hearts. Since he is a loving and gracious God he acceps that we are sinners all he asked us to do his ask him for forgivness. HE wants us not only to ask with are mind but with our heart. And since he can see are heart he can see if were being real or fake with him
DeleteJulie (and others), it's definitely important to do a search on how God chooses to administer his mercy and grace. Does he choose these things? I would love a deeper (biblical) exploration of these ideas.
Deleteh. haguewood. You have a really good point. Grace is shown all throughout the movie. Definitely when Steve has the chance of killing the guy who killed his dad. But its weird to think if he had killed him he would be doing the same sin the guy had done to his father. Murdering....so yea it is incredible that you can forgive, show mercy nd give grace and it will change the whole situation around.
ReplyDeleteYes I agree too. the whole situation could have got worse and the Waodani tribe and steve and his family could never been friend again but Steve took the road of grace and mercy to save his life.
DeleteHannah I totally agree with your thoughts. Grace was a big part of this movie and it definatley was shown through many differant ways. I think the most important scene portraing grace was when Steve had the choice to kill the Indian who killed his father. This scene reminded in 1st Samuel when David had the chance to kill Saul in the cave but didnt because he knew that it wansnt the right thing to do.
ReplyDeleteWow I really like your comparison because in class we talked about messianic fore shadowing and how a similar thing happened to Jesus too. I think that is a great example of 1 samuel
DeleteRevenge was very much shown in the film. When one the members of the tribe lied causing the missionaries to be killed. they didn't deserve to be dead at all but all because they thought they did something wrong it caused them their life.
ReplyDeleteYes @ M Thames! I totally agree with you! This trait of revenge is shown throughout the entire movie. I think it was all kinda based on the "foreigners" took one of the women in the tribe and the tribe thinks she was eaten by the foreigners. (They tribe thinks the Americans are cannibals) I think this is what spurred on the revenge throughout the movie
DeleteI think I agree that revenge was a major part in why they died, but don't we all deserve to die? I think I disagree with your point. If it weren't for Jesus dying on the cross we would all be dead right? Mr. Tally said that every human were no better than the movie theater shooter (I can't remember his name) so why should these people deserve to live? I agree with you when you say that they are doing really great things trying to spread the word of God, I do, but don't we all deserve to die?
DeleteI think that the missionaries showed a lot of grace to the Waodani throughout the movie. The fact that the missionaries still tried to tell them the good news of the gospel is grace because I wouldn't consider trying to tell them the good news after they killed my father. But these people were determined to show them the love of God
ReplyDeleteI think of the difference between justice and revenge as this. Since justice means getting what you deserve, I think revenge means that you want someone to have pain, and suffer, and get them back. When God shows us justice, it is out of love not anger. But when we try to get revenge on someone else, in our hearts we want them to be in pain
ReplyDeleteMr. Scott's Bible Class is finished with the project.
ReplyDeleteOkay - so if God is constantly showing us grace, how does He express it toward us? And what in the world keeps us from TRULY being a people of grace? Could He change us to be more like Him in this way? Why doesn't it happen?
ReplyDeleteHave you ever given true grace to someone?
In 1 Peter 5, it says that, the Lord wants us to be a people of love and a whole, but it also says that he wants us to serve the church not because we have to but because we want to. I think that we're not a people of TRUE grace because we don't want to give grace. If someone hurt us, as humans we want revenge/justice, the complete opposite of grace. In 1 Peter 5: 9-10, it says "Refuse to give into the devil. Stand strong in your faith. You know that your Christian brothers and sisters all over the world are having the same sufferings you have. Yes you will suffer for a short time, but after that, God will make everything right, HE WILL MAKE YOU STRONG! He will support you and keep you from falling.He is the God who gives grace. He called you to share in his glory in Christ. That glory will continue forever." I think that God can change us to be more like him. I think it happens to people all the time, but it might have not happened yet. I think you have to also let God in and want Him to change you before He changes you.
DeleteI think 1 Peter 5: 9-10 is part of the gospel in a way. This is what the Americans were trying to teach. I can see the Americans as God and the Indians like me. God keeps giving me grace, mercy, and forgiveness, and I slip up time and time again, yet He keeps on pursuing me until I finally give in and let Him do his will. This is how I see the movie kind of play out in the same way. The Waodani run but the Americans keep pursuing them, no matter what, and the Waodani are now part of the body of Christ and one day may go to heaven.
DeleteMr. Tally, our world is a very sinnful place. And we, as people living in it, our very sinful creatures. Adam and Eve sinned in Genisis, and now we are stuck in our sin. God shows us grace by letting us live (for one) and also by giving us unconditional love and a place in heaven if we are believers. I think we are not truly people of grace because we are unpure, and sinful. When we accept Christ into our hearts, we are being born again as children of God. Yet, even though we are saved, we still sin and in the end still need God's grace.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I have ever given true grace. we really deserve nothing, so is giving someone your love even if they don't deserve it grace, even if we dont deserve their love?
In the movie I think that 1 Peter 5: 9-10 can be a showing of grace because we can be a part of God's glory. This is a part of the gospel. Grace. In the movie I also kind of see the Waodani people as me and the missionaries as God. God keeps giving me mercy, grace, and forgiveness and I still slip up time and time again. He continues to pursue me until I let His will be done. I feel like this is similar to the movie. The missionaries continue to pursue the Waodani even when they are killing their family. This is what God does for us though. We kill His family, his one and only son and he lets this happen because He wants us human beings that will never even come close to being as perfect, and as amazing as the Lord is, and yet He comes for us. This boggles my mind. I find I ask myself Why? Why would someone so powerful, amazing, perfect, and honored, ever love or even care about someone like me? He loves us so much even when no one else will.
ReplyDeleteTaylor, that's a really good point. just knowing that God fluently shows us mercy is a great feeling. If i commit a sin, I know that God will be open to forgive me and Jesus will take my sin if i confess and repent. Many times as people though, we feel like we can't confess and repent. It's always awkward when we try it, but sometimes it needs to be awkward in order for it to end up "normal."
Delete